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  • Posted by Daniel_esp85 7 months ago. There are 12 posts. The latest reply is from rponting74.
  1. Shalom uvrajah from Spain

    Yes, I want to become jewish, and I talked to a lot of rabbis, most of them by internet but some others directly. I read many discussions you had here and I ´m very curious about it.

    I took my decision 2 years ago but for economical reasons I had to delay the course through a masorti shul. I have to say that I love traditional judaism but I also love many openminded interpretations of Today´s judaism in the liberal movements. If i had to summarize my feelings towards the different movements and my experience in different shuls I would say:

    Reform- The place where I met more jews that would become my friends
    Masorti- The one where I have more experiences and where I met maybe my favourite rabbi in terms of teaching

    Orthodox- Funnily enough, this was the place where I enjoyed the most. Fortunately the services were very entretaining

    I mostly agree with traditional points of view about judaism, but in some cases I have to give the reason to the non-orthodox jews. Judaism was changed a lot of times and they never were an only one party religion.Israel and Judah, saducees and Farisees, Rabanites and Karaites. That´s where I don´t understand Orthodox -I-will-never-move position, specially in terms of conversion, a delicate matter. My knowledge about judaism is some way in the middle of Basic and Intermediate.

    In a discussion in this forum, someone said that orthodox is the way to go through conversion, to gain legitimacy, and then you can join whatever you want. That´s nice, but I don´t think an orthodox would permit, in the first place, a wannabe-jew who says "hey I agree with you, and with conservative, and with reform, I am only here because of Israel favorable religious policy towards you". No offend intended, I respect all the movements points of view (messianic jews not included).
    I have the opportunity of trying through a conservative shul or trying through an orthodox. Conservative are right to me, but the thing that I wouldn´t be recognized by many jews scares me. Orthodox seems to me very interesting and challenging, but as I have some liberal points of view about Torah I fear that I would only waste my time, begging a rabbi "please convert me" months and months.

    My questions are:
    -If I go conservative, how many jews approximately would recognize me, does any conservative can tell me his/her personal experience?
    -Can any orthodox jew that converted through this process tell me his point of view?
    -Any recommendation?
    Todah Rabah

    Daniel

  2. It is interesting that you transliterate a "het" as a "j'. For many years I struggled to pronounce the Hebrew letter"het", mistakenly thinking that it was really a guttural. The daughter of Orthodox friends asked me why I pronounced "challah" as if it was spelled with an "h" and not a "het" (or "chet"). After I had finally figured out how to pronounce the "het" and I was telling my husband about my difficulties, he said with surprise, "But you have no trouble with the Spanish "j" which is basically the same sound. How would you pronounce a Spanish word spelled 'jala'?" I was so annoyed to realize that if anyone had explained it to me that way, I never would have had the problem!

    Anyway, to try to answer your questions:

    Most of the posters on this website are from the U.S., so keep in mind that most of us are not knowledgeable about Jewish communities in Spain.

    I know the most about Conservative/Masorti Judaism, but mostly about CJ in the U.S. and a little about Masorti J in Israel. I know nothing about the Masorti Movement in Spain. C/M conversions are recognized by all C/M and Reform Jewish communities. In the U.S. CJ's are still 1/3 of the synagogue-affiliated Jews in the country, and RJ's are now over 1/3 of the synagogue-affiliated Jews, so a majority of American Jews recognize a CJ conversion. But what matters is the situation where you live. The situation is likely to be different in Spain, and that it the information that you need. You should contact the Masorti movement in Spain to find a rabbi that you can talk to about these kind of questions.

    I feel that posters who suggest that it is possible to convert with an Orthodox beit din and then not continue to live as an Orthodox Jew, are giving bad advice that is based on ignorance of the actual situation. I will change my mind if I can talk to someone who is a *recent* OJ convert who does not live an Orthodox lifestyle and attend an O synagogue and has not have any problems doing so. This suggestion is always put forth in the context of an OJ conversion being "accepted by everyone". But the current reality is that NO conversion is assured of being accepted universally. A number of OJ converts have been denied recognition in Israel. Also in Israel, Orthodox conversions have been *revoked* for such "transgressions" as a woman who married an Orthodox man who did not put on tefillin every single day. And other OJ converts had their conversions ruled invalid not for anything that they had done, but because their sponsoring rabbi was ruled as having been too lenient in a recent conversion, so all his *past* conversions were ruled invalid! That ruling was reversed, but the push to restrict and question OJ conversions remains.Note that the children of women who "lost" their conversions would also become non-Jews. I read about one such woman who returned in tears to a CJ rabbi who she had previously studied with before deciding to convert with an Orthodox rabbi. She begged the CJ rabbi to re-convert her so that she would have some valid conversion.

    There was a recent case of a CJ convert boy in Spain who died and was not allowed to be buried in the regular "Jewish" part of the cemetery because the head rabbi in Spain sought counsel from the Israeli rabbinate: http://tinyurl.com/yacc344
    So one might say that it is a problem to be a non-OJ convert in Spain. But I think the above also indicates the potential for OJ conversion in Spain to be made excessively difficult and for conversions to be revoked just like in Israel. So you can't play it "safe" no matter which movement of Judaism you choose.

    In fact, one could argue that OJ conversions are *less secure* than CJ or RJ conversions because they might be retroactively annuled. In contrast, there is a Conservative rabbinical discussion about a conversion that showed strong evidence of being a planned deception to allow a muslim to move to the West Bank of Israel, but some of the rabbis are still unwilling to revoke a conversion even made under those circumstances. My husband told a very seriously observant Orthodox friend (half joking) that I chose a CJ conversion because I did not want to have to be afraid that it would be taken away from me. Our friend did not take it as a joke, and said that the revocations of conversions was a serious problem that she thought was really terrible.

    Also, about the erroneous idea that an OJ convert could live a CJ or RJ lifestyle after the conversion:
    I do know two women who had OJ conversions who currently do not live a totally OJ lifestyle. BUT they converted 25 and 35 years ago, and they did live an OJ lifestyle for the immediate years after their conversions. They also had intended to live an OJ lifestyle forever at the time that they converted and they did not change until their lives took different turns sometime later. Also, both women are patrilineal Jews who did not want the status of any future children to be questioned as their own status had been. That was a strong motivation for them to get an OJ conversion.

    These days it is getting harder and harder to get *Orthodox* conversions done in the US to be recognized by the Israeli rabbinate. Only a small list of RCA rabbis are currently approved. The RCA is very strict about conversions. *Minimum* of two years of study, must live and pledge to continue living "for the rest of his or her life" within walking distance of an OJ synagogue or minyan, pledge to live a totally strict OJ lifestyle and to send all children to 12 years of Orthodox Jewish day schools, etc. AND the sponsoring rabbi "is responsible for providing the regional beit din with a follow-up report one year after the conversion on how the convert has progressed in his or her religious development." You can check the RCA website yourself to verify the above. I think it is clear that if an RCA OJ convert were found to live a non-OJ lifestyle, the RCA would revoke the conversion.

    But regardless of all of the above:
    Why be dishonest about a conversion to Judaism? I hate to be melodramatic, but isn't that like lying to God?
    Choose the movement that is right for you, not for its perceived "status". Each of the major movements has distinctive beliefs and styles of ritual and community life. Figure out which kind of Judaism "speaks to you" and find a Jewish community of that sort that you feel good about joining. Then do a conversion that is recognized by that community.

    I would say that it sounds like Masorti Judaism fits your beliefs and religious approach the best.

  3. Shalom Debbie, todah rabah for your answer. Yes, in Spain it is easy to pronnunce the israeli "j" ("ch" in English transliteration). In fact, 70% of the shuls I entered for the first time (I lived in the UK in that time) people asked me if I was israeli, because of my accent. Unfortunately not, only Spaniard lol.

    I´m sorry if I did not specify the situation in Spain. In Spain, jewish population is really low (10.000-15.000) so I would be recognized as a jew by almost every spaniard! (most of them never saw a jew in his life, sadly we all know why). The main synagogue is located in Madrid, the capital, and it is orthodox, that´s the place where the conservative child affair happened. There is also small comunities around the territories, as far as I know, 4 conservatives (2 in Madrid and 2 small ones in Valencia) and 1 medium size reform comunity in Barcelona. It also exists a couple of trans denominational tiny comunities here and there.

    My fear is that worldwide figures continue favouring orthodox and that soon, non-orthodox converts could be deligitimate. A jewish convert I know always talk good about U.S.A and not so good about Israel in terms of religion. Now I understand why. Conservative and Reform movement in Israel are tiny and its secular population doesn´t care a lot about affiliation. I talked to an israeli friend I know and told her my intention of converting. She congratulated me , I told here that my intentions is to go traditional, possibly a conservative/masorti synagogue. She answered that I should go orthodox because the others don´t work in Israel. After talking to her a while about conservative and reform principles (she doesn´t know much about religion, as far as I know) she concluded something like "well, it is not as bad as I thought" (no offense inteded to my reform friends). Her case is very representative of the avergare Israeli. When Israel was only a dream, no community was delegitimated, antisemitism was a more important issue, but as Chief Rabinnate of Israel gained force (with israeli population going up and US population going down) orthodox gained a lot. You see, I don´t care that they say "You are a bad jew because of that or that or that" why I really care is the speech "You are not really jewish, talk to an orthodox rabbi" that many secular israelis could agree with. It´s an hypocrite speech, given the fact that many reform and conservative jews support and help Israel.

    Fortunately, I would be elegible for Aliyah and the Administration recognizes all conversions in terms of registry. I don´t plan to move to Israel (at least, not now) but they are making it very hard to diaspora jews. I know that many secular jews in Israel try their best to balance the situation (given the fact that Israel NEEDS jews, government don´t care if they are orthodox or whatever label) but it seems that the situation is not easy.

    I don´t know the world figures, but given the fact that a lot of jews are unaffiliated, "religious" jews are divided 50/50 between orthodox and not orthodox. If we add that most of secular jews in Israel are passive, and sometimes hostile to non orthodox movements, the balance go against non-orthodox.

    The funny thing is that I love orthodox services, in the ritual way they are the best, but in terms of conversion it is better to hide the status. Europe is very influenced by Israeli judaism, so orthodox has a lot of power here too.
    And other questions rise too. I am a man, so, What would I say if I have children and their mother is a non orthodox ger? "Son, you are a jew, but if you travel to Israel or you go to an orthodox shul, NEVER talk about how your father became jewish". It´s really disgusting what the orthodox stablishment in Israel does to non-orthodox jews (and as you mentioned, to other orthodox converts).

    Daniel

  4. From the Orthodox point of view, conversions these days must be held to a higher standard due to more people converting for ulterior motives, like marrying a Jew or for aliyah purposes (Soviet and Ethiopian olim).

    IMHO though, what the rabbis are doing violates halakha, because gerim are no longer viewed the same way as born Jews. Converts are on perpetual probation for the rest of their lives, and possibly afterwards, if rabbis start to revoke conversions after people die.

    This may be a provocative statement, but with the current direction Judaism in Israel is going, Jews are increasingly becoming a racial ethnic group like the Druze or Samaritans, because soon only people who can trace their maternal "bloodline" to before the 1950's can be assured to be Jews. If Rabbi Akiva lived in 2010, he would be thrown out of yeshiva because his parents were converts. Or at least no one would accept him as part of a beit din.

  5. I think secular Israelis think that Orthodox conversion is like getting a Jewish marriage license for secular Jewish Israeli's. If you can prove that both spouses are Jewish, then you just have to play along and say whatever the rabbis want to hear, even suffer indignities like women being asked to show their underwear (to prove that they are not getting married when the woman during a woman's period or 8 days after) and listen to someone tell you about going to mikveh every month ---I'm not making this up, we know secular Israelis who went through this. Then you have to let a "black hat" rabbi do a religious wedding ceremony (which most of your secular friends and relatives will ignore). But after all that, you have a legal Jewish marriage and the rabbis stay out of your life again.

    Secular Israelis do not realize that for conversion, the OJ converts will be asked to agree to live by very strict religious rules for the rest of their lives and lie with the fear of having their conversions revoked for not living observantly enough. The difference is that the Rabbinate in Israel feels that even secular Jews should marry according to religious law, whereas they see no reason that anyone must convert. These rabbis also seem to think that converts can't really become proper Jews and expect them to backslide or revert.

    Ironically, most secular Israelis have accepted the idea that only Orthodox Jews are real religious Jews. The non-Orthodox movements are slowly growing in Israel as Israelis discover that it is possible to have a religious component in ones life without it being quite the all-consuming aspect it is for a very observant Orthodox Jew.

    If you think you want to do an Orthodox conversion be sure that you are comfortable with a totally Orthodox lifestyle AND the people in whatever congregation you would join. Same could be said about any kind of conversion, but more so for OJ since the religious community can be expected to play a bigger role in your everyday life. It can be a very nice thing to be a part of the kind of close-knit community common in Orthodoxy. But will you be comfortable with people who might be appalled by your religious views? And do you think that you can suppress those non-Orthodox views enough for acceptance by an OJ beit din?

    I am lucky to have two minyanim that have many of the characteristics that make OJ appealing while being more welcoming to people who are different (race, sexual orientation, Jewish status, etc) and to more liberal religious view points. And yet our services are nearly identical to OJ services. Sometimes the prayer leader chooses to add the matriarchs, but other than than that there are only a few words that are different all of the Shabbat morning services. And as in O shuls, the congregation knows the service so there are a chorus of voices, not like a "performance" by only the clergy as in some non-O shuls. Most members observe kashrut and Shabbat and people often invite each other over to share Shabbat meals. The community comes to the aid of any family that has needs due to births, illness, or deaths. But an important difference, which I see as a benefit, is that we are completely egalitarian so women lead prayer, read Torah/Haftarah, take aliyot, etc.

    Daniel, perhaps there might be a small minyan that is part of a larger Masorti synagogue that would have some of the things you like about O services? One of my two minyanim is a "library minyan"---term used in the US for small lay-led prayer group that is part of a larger synagogue.

    I don't know if it is wise to put much weight on future possibilities when deciding on which movement. You could get an Orthodox conversion that is later not recognized by the Israeli rabbinate for religious identity (different from Law of the Return), since these things seem to be changing all the time lately And unless you are actually planning to make aliyah, I don't think you should end up living a different kind of life in Spain that you don't really like just because of that possibility.

    As for other Jews recognizing your Jewish status: does it really matter what some ultra-Orthodox lay person that you will never meet would think of your conversion? I would also like to add that I have Modern Orthodox friends who treat me and my children as Jews even if they would require conversion of my kids to marry theirs (or prohibit that in the case of the sons of a Cohen). I think that it is like hechshers (rabbinical supervision stamps on food): we have friends who are fine with drinking lemonade with a "triangle K" hechsher at our house (because it is certainly "kosher") even though they would not serve it in their own home because they or others in their community are think the supervisors may use leniencies they are not comfortable with. Similarly, I think maybe they think that I either am or could be Jewish, they are just not sure about the certification process (whether the rabbis were qualified witnesses by being religiously observant by OJ standards, for example).

    Daniel, the fact that you are male makes it EASIER as far as future children. If you marry a woman who has a clear Jewish matrilineal line, then your children will be Jewish by Orthodox standards regardless of you conversion status or even if you are not Jewish at all. I guess you could worry that you would be more likely to meet and marry a non-O convert if you join a non-O synagogue, but do you really want let that kind of prejudice against female converts influence the type of conversion and life you choose for yourself?

    So I urge you to decide based on which group feels right. It is your life to live, not that of others who might judge your Jewish status.

    Usaurio,

    If the trend continues, Judaism will fracture into two non-intermarrying groups, with the fundamentalist Jews becoming a racial ethnic group---non-O Jews will continue to accept converts. I do not believe that non-O Jews are going to disappear any time soon (despite the YU rabbi saying "kaddish" for CJ and basically calling RJ non-jews already). In some ways the split has already happened.

  6. Thank you. Probably I will try conservative, I guess I have to get used to be a jew to 45-60% of jewry and a jew in question marks for the rest. As one of the coordinators of this forum said... "95% jewish". Rabbis in general should be more open and collaborative to converts. Have your read "The Rabbi" by Noah Gordon?.
    MINOR SPOILERS
    I would only say that a person converT through orthodox in less than 6 months. The candidate says "I thought I have to study a lot more" and the o. rabbi said something like "yes you need, I only say that you are ready to convert, you can be a jew, an ignorant one (but a jew)".

  7. It sounds like an interesting book. I think that the rabbi makes good points!

  8. Thanks for starting this thread. I hope it will be helpful to many people that are searching for this topic. Keep posting guys and keep this forum a great place to learn things.

  9. Member
    Posted 2 days ago #

    Thanks for starting this thread. I hope it will be helpful to many people that are searching for this topic. Keep posting guys and keep this forum a great place to learn things.

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