The Un-Jewing of Orthodox Converts in Israel
I’m sure that most of our reader by now have already heard about the latest in the fiasco in Israel regarding converts and the “Who is a Jew” question. But in case you haven’t here is a snippet from a recent Jerusalem Post article covering the story.
The Jewishness of thousands of converts was cast in doubt after the High Rabbinical Court of Israel severely censured the head of the country’s Conversion Authority for performing conversion in a non-kosher way.
In a decision that was published last week, the three-man panel of rabbinic judges upheld a ruling from an Ashdod Rabbinic Court that retroactively annulled the conversion of a woman performed by Rabbi Haim Druckman, head of the Conversion Authority, 15 years ago.
The decision to annul the woman’s conversion was made after it became known that she never adhered to Orthodox Jewish practice after her conversion. As a result, the Jewish status of the woman’s four children was annulled. In addition, the woman’s husband, who is Jewish according to Halacha, was questioned.
Along with its decision to uphold the Ashdod court’s decision, the judges also cast doubt on the validity of all conversions conducted by Druckman since 1999.
Over the years Druckman has personally converted hundreds, perhaps thousands and in his capacity as head of the Conversion Authority he has overseen thousands more.
“If this decision is upheld it will destroy the Conversion Authority,” said Rabbi Moshe Klein, Druckman’s deputy. “And if it is not upheld, it will undermine the good name of the High Rabbinical Court. Either way it is a disaster.”
You can read the rest of the story over here.
To be honest my first thoughts upon hearing about all of this were a) that I’m not the least bit surprised and b) I actually don’t care that much about it. However having had the opportunity now to sit with this news for a couple of days, I can say that it’s helped me glean a few insights in terms of my own sense of Jewishness and direction. However for the time being I’m going to hold off on what this development means to me personally, because it all ties in quite nicely to another post I am working on and hope to publish later on this week.
This decision is just wrong on so many levels and I certainly could take this article as an opportunity to do some serious orthodox bashing and to be honest I was initially tempted to do so but I’m not going to, because there’s already enough ortho versus non-ortho bashing going on and thats bad for everyone.
However I will say this.
Even if it’s too soon to tell how all of this is going to play out and whether or not this ruling is going to have any real and lasting effect on the ground in Israel. It is another clear example (in a long line of recent examples,) illustrating the Orthodox world’s ongoing slide towards the right and towards extremism.
I think Orthodox and non-Orthodox converts alike need to see this for what it is, proof that no matter how Jewish you try to be (and feel you are) and how many conversions you undergo, chances are there’s always going to be someone, some group, who isn’t going to acknowledge you as a Jew. It sucks, it hurts and it’s unfair but it goes with the territory, so we might as will all get used to it.
The best Advice I can offer I myself or anyone else when it comes to doing Jewish, is think it through, take your time and be honest about what you are doing and why you are trying to do it.
When it boils down to it I don’t rule out doing an orthodox conversion myself at some point and I certainly can understand why others would want to pursue one, but to pursue an orthodox conversion for any reasons related to the status of future children or to please a husband and/or a community is obviously a mistake as is clearly pointed out in this article. It just puts you at risk of creating bigger problems for yourself down the road and as this article shows, maybe even be putting other converts at risk. Sincere converts who probably don’t deserve to be.
Anyhow that’s my two cents, what do you all think?
Avi,
Thanks for a heads-up about this situation. For a thorough, dispassionate, factual description of this issue, check out My Obiter Dicta’s blog post here. I especially recommend reading MOD’s post since newspaper articles like the Jerusalem Post’s above are likely to be incomplete.
This appears at the outset to be a gross hillul Hashem. But still, I recommend that people suspend their rage until the following things have become clear:
1) What are the facts? My Obiter Dicta has the facts. The Post article does not. (The Post never describes the "non-kosher way" in which R’ Druckman performed his conversions. And they can’t, because he never converted anyone in a non-kosher way.)
2) What happens next? Where does the case go after this? The secular Israeli Supreme Court? R’ Shlomo Amar?
3) How will the rest of the rabbinic community react? Will they uphold it out of obedience to the High Court? Will R’ Shlomo Amar step in and censure the Court for ignoring his order not to publish their ruling? Will the Supreme Court restructure the Rabbinate in a way that this ruling can be struck down?
It’s very easy to get upset about something like this. If I were one of R’ Druckman’s converts, I’d be plenty worried. But as you point out, Avi, we’re still in the middle of this situation. I don’t think the Court’s ruling will be final. Here are some other things to consider to try to gain some perspective:
1) The Gemara and the Rambam state clearly that every conversion is final, no matter how the convert behaves afterward. I know of a Beit Din that converted a sincere-seeming man who went on to make aliyah and began a multi-million dollar organization to convert Jews to Christianity. He’s still a Jew. There is no precedent or text in the Torah that allows for such a ruling.
2) R’ Druckman is not responsible for this woman’s observance or non-observance after he converts her. He’s not the only rabbi in the world who has converted someone who went on not to live a fully observant life. Most rational people (including Orthodox rabbis) recognize this fact and do not blame R’ Druckman, who adhered to the necessary standards in keeping with his level of responsibility.
3) It seems to me, and to many others here in Israel, that the High Court is attacking R’ Druckman for political reasons. To expose one case of a convert not observing the commandments at the time of her divorce does NOT automatically invalidate nine years and thousands of conversions by the same rabbi. Yet the individuals on this particular court clearly have a vendetta of some kind against R’ Druckman—to which we are not privy—and are seeking to destroy his career and, in the process, victimize thousands of converts (not a kosher enterprise according to the Torah).
4) Contrary to what you and others might perceive, Avi, this particular ruling is NOT indicative of an Orthodox slide to the extreme right. What it IS indicative of is a government that at all levels lacks transparency, checks and balances, and a fair system of appointments. The Rabbinate is rife with nepotism and mediocrity and, as this situation illustrates, insufficient accountability to the Torah and to the Chief Rabbi. These dayanim (rabbinical judges) should be removed with all possible speed and their ruling struck down by a replacement court, if such a thing is possible.
The dati leumi (national religious, usually modern- and centrist-Orthodox) community finds itself in a very strange position in Israel. The Rabbinate is run by hareidi Jews and the civil court system by secular Jews. Neither of these communities is particularly friendly toward those of us in the middle of the society, religiously speaking. Yet the court system is set up so that incumbent judges in both courts appoint their colleagues, which means that it’s nearly impossible for a dati leumi judge or dayan to get appointed to either of these courts. As a result, one rarely sees a moderate Orthodox viewpoint represented in the rulings of either court.
There is truth in what you say when you write, that "to pursue an orthodox conversion for any reasons related to the status of future children or to please a husband and/or a community is obviously a mistake." This is exactly the attitude the Orthodox batei din (rabbinical courts) take when faced with someone wishing to convert. They want the convert to understand that it is a personal—rather than a communal—commitment he or she is taking on, and to be confident that even if the marriage were to dissolve, that the convert would retain her or his dedication to the Torah. There is nothing extremist in this.
I’ve said quite enough, but I hope I helped clarify the issues somewhat.
-Shimshonit
And on the heels of this comes a Jew calling me out in a public forum telling me that I will never be Jewish, that I’m not Jewish, that it "isn’t in my blood" and more. Flagrant hate, spewed across an internet forum for all the world to see.
It isn’t just the right — it’s self-loathing secular Jews, too.
Today is a frustrating day to be a convert. It’s days like this that I sometimes just want to say "Are my parents Jewish? I wouldn’t know, they died long ago, so I wasn’t raised Jewish but discovered I was and yes, I’m Jewish all the way back to the beginning of time, no, I’m not a convert."
Argh!
Shim
Thanks for the (lengthy LOL) reply, which for the most part I agree with BTW. On point four however, I say, not so fast lady!
This one incident in of its self is not definitive and I didn’t say it was but add it to the pile of recent (and not so recent) events and it does help paint a picture that looks a lot like, more slide to the right. I read what you have written and respect your take an OJ but you aren’t the only OJ I have spoken to on this one and not everyone is as dismissive as you. You are right there is a lack of transparency and indeed nepotism but I (and some others) see this as PART OF THE SLIDE to the right and as behaviors which seem to fit with a "TRUTH HOLDER" mindset. Of course feel free to disagree but please do know you clearly do not represent the views of all centrist OJ’s because I know at least a couple who are nearer to my take on this than they are to yours.
Chavi
All I can really say is get used to it because although it may be the exception rather than the norm, it is going to happen from time to time. I have learned that the more confidant I become in my own sense of Jewishness and Yidishkite, the less such things bother me. I wish the same for you.
Lastly I forgot to mention in the post that as a non-OJ convert I do see a couple of possible upsides to all of this. The first being that it helps break the notion that the OJ world is a monolithic entity where everyone shares the same view of what "Torah True" Judaism is, when it is in fact (in many ways) just as fragmented as the non OJ world. This is a fact which IMO is all to often missed buy the non-OJ world especially converts. The second potential upside IMO is that we are maybe beginning to see cracks in the foundation of the Orthodox monopoly on conversion in Israel and that wouldn’t be a bad thing IMO. Admittedly I’m probably wrong on that one but it would be nice.
Chavi,
I think it’s no mistake that converts are referred to as ben/bat Avraham v’Sarah. How much more Jewish can you get? And converts themselves, yet. Them’s some pretty impressive halachic parents, if you ask me.
I’m saddened too. There will always be people who don’t accept conversion to Judaism as kosher at all, but they’re what my rav calls "frummer than the halachah," which to me says we shouldn’t spend too much of our time worrying about what they think. The Torah says repeatedly that people should care especially for the widow, the orphan, and the ger. Yet it’s surprising how many people forget to do that. Many dedicated Jews wonder how Avraham, Sarah, Moshe Rabbeinu, and all the rest would react if they saw what Judaism (both good and bad) looks like today. "Nu? This you call Yahadut? Oy vay voy."
-S
To further buttress Shimshonit’s advice to wait out the storm a bit and to let the dust settle, there are already reports that Chief Rabbi Amar will overturn the ruling. There are still procedural questions as to how and whether, but at least his intent has already been made public.
See, for example: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126074
-IY
Ish-
Thanks for the link. I just checked it out and wow! I think it will be interesting to see how this all plays out!
A frustrating day to be a convert indeed. Some might want to reflect, in the words of D. Hartman, that shunning those who have "made the momentous choice of declaring: ‘I too am with you; we came out of Egypt together’" would be counterproductive to the prosperity of the Jewish Nation as a whole.
For more on Donniel Hartman’s insights follow the link below. Great food for thought as we sit between Pesach and Shavuot…
who is a jew
Somewhat tangential to the original topic but intriguing in times like this nonetheless.
L’Shalom,
Chavala
My rabbi (Conservative, and the father of an Orthodox rabbi who recently made aliyah to Israel) keeps telling me to think of it like the Almish not thinking of anyone else as being a legitimate Christian–it doesn’t keep Catholics from feeling like real Christians.
…I appreciate his sentiment in terms of my day to day experience of myself as a (budding) Jew, but the fact that decisions like this can be made and carry such the promise of threat not only to we converts, but to our matrilinial progeny in the one place on earth they should feel most safe in their Jewishness, seems to me to render the comparison somewhat shallow.
What has helped me is to study halakhah, particularly Orthodox halakhah, with a professor of mine who’s something of an expert on the issue (admittedly from the standpoint of an American law-trained professor), which led me to this conclusion: It’s not about us. Not really. It’s about different factions struggling for internal control, for a sense that they’re legitimate. Legitimacy means that if they’re legitimate, then nobody else is–no one else can be–hence they get to say who belongs and who does not belong, and what the criteria for that belonging is. Yielding and compromise, or any appearance thereof, becomes impossible. We’re a great place to draw a bright line; we’re one of the few places an absolute bright line can be drawn. Unfortunately, everyone wants to be the one to draw it. Getting to say what the criteria for choosing to belong is and how it is enforced–it’s hard to get more fundamental, more primal, than that.
Somehow it helps for me to think of it like that–and to compare it to other instances of faction-fighting, like the fray over what constitutes a legit get and what to do about agunah, to which when a professor of mine who is fascinated with such matters and I sat down and made a dispassionate comparison, there seemed to be much in common–perhaps because it takes the sting of it feeling personal out.
Hi all,
I have to preface my comment by saying that as a non-Israeli who is eligible for Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, I may not have a stake in whether or not Rabbi Amar reverses this decision at this point, but any future decision about moving to Israel will be impacted by how these issues shake down. Anyway….
Maybe this scenario, and those like it, and the ones concerning agunot, etc… are all arguments for the abolishment of the Chief Rabbinate. Somehow the Orthodox communities in the U.S. manage to thrive without an official Chief Rabbi here. And given the huge variety of thought in Israelis’ Judaism - Gerers and Lubavitchers, Litvach/Yeshivish and Breslovers, Dati Leumi and masorti (and "Masorti!")… maybe its time for each community to follow its own authority, and for some separation between the secular government and halakhic authority. If the Litvach community won’t recognize people, it only impacts them if they want to be Litvach, which seems wholly appropriate to me - again, given the disclaimer I gave above.
kol tuv,
Yair
Yair makes a point about eligibility for citizenship under the Law of Return that I just want to clarify. Anyone with a conversion to Judaism, be it Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, or whatever, is eligible to make aliyah under the Law of Return. (So is anyone with one Jewish grandparent, and it doesn’t have to be your mother’s mother.) They are free to come here, live, work, vote, and carry out most of their life’s functions as full citizens. Where personal status becomes a problem is if the person isn’t Jewish according to halachah (a la Orthodoxy). This means that any functions carried out by the Rabbinate—marriage, divorce, burial—are unavailable to someone not recognized as Jewish by the State.
Most of the people converted by R’ Druckman came on aliyah as non-halachic Jews under the Law of Return. Though I’m sure for most people in First World countries (do people still use that expression?) it’s not terribly tempting to come and be considered a non-Jew, it’s still possible and, for the Russians and others from lands where Jews are persecuted without regard for their halachic status, a godsend.
"It’s not about us. Not really. It’s about different factions struggling for internal control, for a sense that they’re legitimate."
Yes, the struggle is indeed about s.th. else. it is about jewish identity in general - that is mostly forgotten in the circles where these debates take place. the gerim are only a very good example where this inner struggle get’s visible. but in the end it is not about them at all.
but gerim have also a big responsibility for the development of the jewish identity - therefore i think everybody who wants to join the jewish people has to inform him/herself very good or better: at its best beforehand - about the different concepts in the contex of halakha and the like. because his responsibility is maybe in the first place not to get s.th. but to give… there is no right for conversion. don’t be someone else who is in need of strenght and support (even if in the tfilos we are always reminded that the ger and the almana need to be supported, but this is meant in a different way). s.o. converts to become a jew and not a ger. so he gets responsibilities in the first place. therefore frustration about things like they happened these days is understandable but should be overcome very quickly ;).
what concerns the struggle between liberal jews and orthodox jews: i think it is also legitimate to ask liberal jews for a longing of understanding orthodoxy, to learn about it. orthodoxy it is not always about hitting the liberals, it is in the first place a very big anxiety about loosing the track as a real jewish people. which is understandable these days, even if the solution to encounter this are often difficult to understand. and yes orthodoxy is not monolitic.
yair - i don’t believe that there will be a tremendous change in the context of aliyah, when nO conversions will be accepted one day. it is difficult to live in israel - not only from an economic point .
i’m glad to see that the RCA, which many people lately have been feeling is sort of useless, put itself on the right side of this scandal, at the possible risk of jeopardizing their own hard-won agreement with the Rabbanut (whatever some of us may think of that agreement). http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=105297
An interesting time to be a convert. That’s about as far as I’d give you. Challenging? Why on earth would it be challenging? This debate has been raging for longer than any of us have been alive. Judaism is somewhat insular. Unlike the other major religions of the world, conversion isn’t encouraged.
My GF is interested in judaism, and intends to investigate the process. I am right there next to her supporting her. If you will, please allow me the opportunity to chime in from a born jew in a long term, serious relationship to a potential convert….
I don’t care.
Period.
If the rabbinate in Israel is going to invalidate my gf/future wife’s conversion, I say they don’t matter much. Why? Simple halachic analysis provides that it is a sin to question a converts faith. While the rabbinate may feel compelled to weigh in with their opinion, it is of no consequence provided the jew by decision went through a kosher process and feels a deep seeded relationship with god.
The rabbinate is vastly ill-equipped to make such a determination. Sadly, those with the power struggle to hold on to it and tarnish the rank and file during that struggle.
Ask why there are MAYBE one or two quality kosher restaurants in the Chicago area. The answer is that the folks that certify kashrut mandate suppliers and make that business a nightmare, allowing people who don’t care about the food to get away with calling bad service, low quality, and poor tasting food a restaurant.
Florida doesn’t have this problem, and neither does NYC. But the rabbi’s in charge here do what they do for their own personal reasons.
My point here, and there is one, is that converting is a personal matter secondarily, but primarily about one’s relationship with the lord. Rejoice in your connection to our creator.
The mistake would be to allow this nonsense to affect your self-image. In my mind, once you become a jew (earnestly and honestly), you are a jew. You are no longer a convert. No one can take that away from you.
Orthodoxy is not heading to the extremes - orthodoxy has pockets of intolerant rabbi’s mixed in with people with a more reasonable nature.
One orthodox rabbi I know well is married to a woman who became a jew by her own choice. There is no dispute that she is jewish to the core.
Stay positive!
Jeff — you’re a Chicagoan? I haven’t been to many of the kosher restaurants, though I hear Taboun is pretty good
It is coming up very close to one full year for me since I became a Jew in the formal sense of being recognized as such within the Reform community. The more I think about this whole issue the more I dig in my heels and say that if anyone else–Jewish or otherwise–thinks I am not a Jew, that is their problem and not mine. I have never for one moment thought I would want to be orthodox, but it is only in the last several months that I have come to feel really strongly Reform, with a capital r. I used to say that I had little use for the various movements, but after attending the URJ Biennial, I realize that it is the right home for me.
As for Israel, I do not have any strong urge to move there (though I have had the passing thought about it now and then), but I ever did, this would be an issue. And probably, if current policy did not change, it would be the deal-breaker for me. It is a lot easier to take my "their problem, not mine" position in a liberal country than it would be in such an illiberal place (Jewishly/religiously) as the State of Israel.
Hi all
It’s the first time I’ve posted on here. I’m not surprised at what is happening in Israel, though my husband is, and he’s livid. I’m an Orthodox convert. I converted in Israel (not under Rav Druckman!) after beginning a conversion here in England. After four and a half years there, we came back to England, where I’m doing a PhD in Jewish Law. We’re shomer shabbat, we keep niddah (I’m trained as a niddah poseket), I cover my hair. One of the dayanim here wouldn’t allow the mohel to make a bracha at my son’s bris. He never even met me, and never inquired into my level of practice (let alone my intention at the time of the giyur). I don’t know what level of stone-heartedness you have to have to do that to a woman within a week of giving birth, but… So I’m no longer surprised at anything. My husband always thought at least if we went back to Israel, our kids could marry anyone they liked. I always suspected that no-one’s word could be trusted, let alone the people who promised me that "once a Jew always a Jew…". I take on board the fact you can’t do this for the sake of the children, spouse etc. I didn’t. I did it because I still, despite everything, find something very rich and fulfilling in a Jewish, observant way of life. But it breaks my heart that my children, who are still pre-schoolers and know more about keeping Shabbat and kosher than most kids years older than them at good Jewish day schools, may well one day be told that they’re not Jews. I may have been mad enough to convert, but what did they do to deserve to be treated like that?
Thanks for weighing in, Nechama. Your words got me thinking about this issue in a wider context.
After reading all of the comments on this post, I’ve come to the conclusion that what we’re facing here is not limited to bigoted Orthodox hegemony or disenfranchisement of the liberal streams of Judaism. It’s about the stupidity and bad behavior that so often come with being human beings.
The people who feel the need to denigrate non-Orthodox conversions or dump on Orthodox ones are displaying the same primitive behavior that soon-to-be-Rabbi Stanton and her daughter were subjected to in Jerusalem on Tamara’s post; that women get from men who think they’re second-best, weak, stupid, or evil (i.e. who fear them); and that Israel gets from most of the rest of the world. As my dear mother always says, "s**t rolls downhill," and anyone who thinks they’re in a position of superiority over someone else, and feels a need to share that belief with the rest of the world, is living in a very dim spiritual place.
As devout Jews, we should refuse to take in such expressions: not only because they are incorrect, but because they are a form of lashon hara (evil speech) which we are commanded not to perpetrate either by speaking or by listening. When appropriate, it is permissible to remind the person of the laws of shmirat halashon (guarding one’s speech) and prevent them from sinning in this way. As others have pointed out on the blog, it is forbidden to harm converts or to remind them of their past, and to embarrass someone is said to be as serious as if one has committed murder. So when we encounter these attitudes, it is fitting that we should 1) remind the person that they are committing a grave aveira (transgression); 2) walk away; 3) change the subject; or 4) plug our ears and say "La la la, I can’t hear you!" Okay, maybe #4 is a bit absurd, but you get the idea.
So, as alissiana points out, this behavior is not about us. It’s about the person doing it, and it needs to stop, one way or another.
hi nechama - it’s well known that the british (orthodox) beis din is sometimes quite strict. what exactly are the reasons not to accept you as a jew in the fold since you did an o conversion and keep the essential laws?
since you studied for "nidda poseket" (do you mean yoetzet halakha?) is it that you converted to much "mo" for this dayan?
i don’t want to argue for this dayan, but might it be that the only way to prove the level of observance a potential convertmight have sometimes is which kind of beis din he or she had chosen? i mean, they can’t visit bedieved every household…
" It’s about the stupidity and bad behavior that so often come with being human beings."
shimshonit, i don’t think these are the reasons.
as i said above, i believe that these "confusions" in the gerus "business"are happening mainly out of anxieties (and powerplays).
there is something out of balance.
Rose,
The case with the rabbanut is about power, of the rabbis over one another (in this case hareidi rabbis over a dati leumi rabbi), and of everyone over converts who, in most cases, are powerless over others.
However, I don’t believe that the person who was rude to Chavi in a public forum has any real power over her (except to humiliate her). The Amish and other Christian sects that alissiana mentions that don’t accept each other as true Christians don’t usually have power over one another. And outside Israel, Orthodoxy has no control over liberal streams of Judaism.
In some cases it’s a power play, in others it’s just plain rudeness. While no one takes pleasure in any of these, it’s important for our own mental health to be able to tell the difference.
-S
Hi Rose
Oddly enough, Britain is small enough that the beit din do (apparently) operate by doing "spot checks" - i.e. turn up and expect to inspect your fridge(!) (Not them, presumably, but people they trust!) The practice is normally to ask questions about level of observance when you try to, for example, join a shul or send your kids to a school. (Through some oversight or, I suspect, someone’s less than functional reading glasses, we managed to slip through the net when we registered our daughter at a kindergarten). But yes, you’re right: ultimately, they just don’t accept Israeli conversions unless they recognise the name on the certificate (which made me laugh when the Israeli Rabbinate was putting pressure on the RCA to standardise their conversion, under threat of not recognising them. As someone on the site commented - everyone seems to have to feel superior to someone). I feel less angry at the British dayan than I do at the people who taught me for the giyur in Israel and who led me to believe that the mikveh was the end of the ordeal.
Incidentally, reading through my previous post, it seems a bit like I’m trying to set myself up as a model convert or something! I’m so not! (either trying to present myself as that, or actually a particularly good specimen!) I just mean that those were all the boxes that I was told if I ticked them nobody would ever call my status into question. (Oh, and btw I just don’t use yoetzet because I didn’t do the Nishmat programme which includes lots of counselling stuff. I’m only qualified to answer questions, not to be nice to people!!)
I guess what I was trying to say was there’s a lot of people who have been looking at this case and saying: well, they were able to revoke her conversion because she wasn’t very serious and what would any "true" convert have to fear, and I do believe that all of us are vulnerable - first because, as you say, there is a power struggle going on (and we just happen to be the battle ground); second, because if someone wants to find a halakhic ground for annulling the giyur there’s always something they can find (this person skipped minyan for a month when he had a newborn baby, or she was seen wearing pants whilst walking the dog last Thursday, or whatever) and third, because some people actually don’t think converts are real jews (did anyone else get forced to read Sefer ha-Kuzari when they were preparing for giyur)?
Am I miles off?
N
annulled? ahhh! it’s the Roman Catholic church!
hi nechama -
you can’t "annull" a giyur that easily (because of wearing pants). there must be heavyweights otherwise it is problematic. one of the heavyweights is the beis din, and sadly many people on their way to the giyur are just not able to find and aks the right people.
i am very sorry for you. isn’t there any chance to take another pluntch into the mikvah and do some tikun in GB?
where did you study btw if it wasn’t nishmat? just curious.
all the best,
rose
Hi Rose
I’ll go dip in the mikvah as many times as anyone wants me to, but I have (b’H) 3 children. Knowing what it is like to be a convert, I’m not going to choose that for them. It’s not just a matter of marrying cohanim (or growing up with the chance of being dayanim themselves!), though that matters too - it’s the feel of it. If they are registered as converts, then their children will be called into question in turn, and so it goes on. At the moment, we are just hoping that by the time they grow up the dust will have settled. If it hasn’t, then they will make their own decisions. (I also feel that I might have problems convincing a beis din that I was truly repentant and willing to follow their authority at this point - I feel like "been there, done that, this is who I am now - if it’s a question of leaving or not leaving unpeeled eggs overnight, or a sheitl versus a tichl, ok, but if it’s another complete life overhaul just for the sake of showing you’ve changed something…
(I learnt at Pardes, and in a private shiur given by the rabbi who then taught the gemara shiur to the kollel in Pardes, and also the halakha shiur for the semikha programma at Ma’ale Gilboa (when they had a semikha programme - those were the days!). He did the three year cycle with the guys (niddah, issur v’heter and shabbat) and has been teaching the same cycle to both men and women in a shiur in Jerusalem). Oh - and of course I’ve never mentioned the learning I did (that learning) to anyone in Britain - I’m not that crazy! It sometimes drives me up the wall, though, when the men are having their "oh look at what it says in the Shakh on this!" kind of conversations!
"I’m not going to choose that for them."
hi nechama -
in that respect i agree with you, even if i think with small kids i maybe would… but i understand your decision and with the experience you made i understand it even twice. hopefully you are right and the whole status debates will be smoother when they are grown-ups.
concerning pardes i think it might be a good place to learn but it is not really a place for people from the "frum" community … so also here it is a decision someone makes and you present yourself with this decision in a certain light. i am fine with that (who am i anyway to lable decisions of others as right or wrong) but a dayan from the london beis din might not ;).
anyway, i hope (and i guess) there are places in GB where you and your kids can fully integrate. that is really important - not to stay alone.
all the best!
rose